Home
 
 
11 April 2008 @ 03:49 pm
male female writers  
This post harkens back to earlier threads among my Livejournal friends (and various places elsewhere on the Net), regarding male versus female writers appearing in genre mags. 

So a few days ago, I received an email from a subscriber (I don't know her at all), telling me the new Talebones had arrived, and upon opening the envelope, was disappointed to find that every single name on the cover was male. 

Bust my buttons, it's true.

No doubt they were great stories, she said, and she'd probably get over it and read them. But as a female reader, it made her feel unwelcome. She subscribed to the magazine during the Save Talebones drive. According to her experience, a lot of print spec-fic magazines seem to have all-male or majority-male covers, while the online mags seem to do it less. As a reader, she thought she was a good target audience for magazines like mine (and other print mags), but often, it didn't feel that way to her.

Issue #36 not only has all males on the cover, there is in fact only one female story writer in the whole issue. Counting poetry, there were only 3 women out of 11 writers. Only NOW have I looked at the story selection for that issue in regards to male/female, which goes to show that sometimes I'm reading and selecting stories without being cognizant of whether they're male or female. I told her that when it comes to the cover, 95% of the time I'm putting the bigger or more known names there, with no real thought about male or female. In a subsequent email, she stated that none of the "known" names on the cover of #36 meant anything to her, and if some of them had been women writing under a male name, she wouldn't have known. But all the names on the cover (with the exception of Dean Wesley Smith (a name writer imho) and Mikal Trimm, a first-time poet with the mag) have published in Talebones more than once (Paul Melko, James Van Pelt, Greg Schwartz, Jason D. Wittman). Mikal was more known to me than the other two female poets. I mean, if I buy a Melko or Van Pelt story, I'm going to put them on the cover every time. Long-time subscribers would be more familiar with these writers as frequent Talebones writers. 

I found it interesting that she said that the male-female split indicated to her a certain overall sensibility, a sense of whether she could expect to like more or fewer of the stories. In other words, she expects to like more of the stories, even by male authors, in magazines where the split is more even. I think in the 11 years Honna and I were together and making joint decisions on the magazine's contents, we never once talked about male and female percentages and what was going on the cover due to that dynamic. Even the last few years, when we were together, the percentage of female writers was 35% 40% in the magazine. Then again, just two issues ago, the stories were 50/50 between male and female, and 2 of the 5 names on the cover were female. Six years ago, when Orion was born (when you figure the female side of things would win over) our baby issue had 8 stories, and only 2 were female. (A 3rd listed female writer, Alexandra Arruin, was actually a male writer). And generally, as I looked back over a good number of Talebones copies from past years on my shelf, anywhere between 30-60% of the writers listed on the cover were female, depending on the issue.

Well. These things certainly are noticed out there. Rich Horton does a masterful summary of all the genre mags of the year, print or e-, and even gives a breakdown of things such as the number of SF stories vs Fantasy, and the percentage of women to men. Talebones had 30% women writers in 2007, and slightly higher in 06.  I mentioned to her that some print mags were quite high, as she stated. FANTASY magazine had 83% women last year. But then again, a magazine like CEMETERY DANCE had only 16% women. AEON is run by two women, Marti & Bridget McKenna, and even they published only 38% women writers last year.

5 of the 11 pieces I've selected for next issue are by women. Looking at the names, I suspect two of the women will end up on the cover because of name recognition.

I am certainly not trying to single out male writers, and don't want to make anyone feel unwelcome. I hope I am aware of that dynamic, but bottom line is: I still have to print the stories I feel are the best of the bunch I've received, and put the names on the cover that have the most recognition. 

Have any of you noticed or had thoughts specifically about male vs female names on COVERS (print or web) vs the breakdown by sex of the stories within themselves?

 
 
( Post a new comment )
Kate Schaefer[info]kate_schaefer on April 11th, 2008 11:33 pm (UTC)
Percentage of male/female writers is, in fact, the first thing I look at when I open up F&SF and Asimov's, and it has been for many years.

The second thing I look at is how many Clarion West alumni are in the issue.

I don't know how many readers look at the proportions the way I do. I don't expect to stop reading the magazines just because I feel discouraged about the proportions represented in them. I'm aware of them, all the time.
Patrick Swenson[info]tbclone47 on April 11th, 2008 11:38 pm (UTC)
And I think I'm pretty good about printing CW alums in the mag. :)
Kate Schaefer[info]kate_schaefer on April 12th, 2008 05:43 am (UTC)
Oh, sure. I know you are.

I go ahead and read all the stories in the magazines that I get. I don't think that the editors, including you, are massively prejudiced against female writers. I do think that they mostly buy whatever stories seem right for the magazines. I don't think there is a vast conspiracy. I know for certain that the editors I know personally are, for the most part, committed feminists. I think that proportions reflect the proportions found in the stories submitted to the magazines.

But I do notice the percentage, every single time, and I'm willing to bet that a lot of other women do, too.

I think that the place to address the percentage is a lot earlier in the supply chain, which is part of why I volunteer for Clarion West.
Ian Rogers[info]onemoreshadow on April 12th, 2008 12:32 am (UTC)
I don't really care if a writer is male or female, only that they tell an entertaining story, and I'd hate to think a magazine -- any magazine -- publishes a story by any writer simply to meet a status quo.

I think if a mag is publishing more males than females it doesn't automatically make the editor and staff misogynists, although I guess that is the implication here. It's not an argument I suspect anyone can win, because how can you really prove anything one way or the other? There is certainly a lot of emphasis put on who is being published these days, whether they're male or female. I never really thought of it before. There are plenty of male and female writers I like, plenty of mags I subscribe to, and it never crossed my mind that any of the editors are purposely trying to oppress female writers.

I've never considered the quality of a magazine to be based in the sex of the authors it publishes. But as a male, and being part of the problem, I suppose I'm not allowed to have an opinion in this matter.
(Anonymous) on April 19th, 2008 11:06 pm (UTC)
I'm the TB subscriber referred to, and flattered to find my e-mail started this discussion.

First off, I'd like to state explicitly that I think that anyone who starts a mag has an absolute right to decide what goes in it. I respect anyone running a genre magazine; I know it's always a labor of love.

And I completely agree that the *quality* of a mag does not depend on the author's sex. Or age. Or race. Etc.

But I don't read for quality, I read for fun. My metric is simply, do I expect to enjoy the stories?

And here I'll posit another empirical observation - that on the whole, overall, men and women bring a somewhat different sensibility to stories. It's a spectrum, not a binary thing. It happens that I enjoy stories that tend to the middle of the spectrum, skewing female. Others might have different tastes.

So why did I write to TB? Precisely because it had, in the past, had more stories by women authors. If I'd perceived it as skewing male and (thus less fun), I wouldn't have written. I support the existence of such mags, I just don't see myself as their audience. I spoke of the names on the cover because that's the first thing I saw, but of course it's a surrogate for my expectation of magazine.

In the end, what determines a magazine's fun-value, AFAIC, is how closely my tastes align with the editors'. And the male-female split is one - though only one - indicator.

When life gives you lemmings...[info]danjite on April 12th, 2008 01:06 am (UTC)
I never check the race, sex, religion or socioeconomic status of writers in making a buying decision. I buy based on previous experience, recommendations of others or by reading a sample of their work.

Personally, I think applying a gender metric in considering what to read is itself a sexist act.

But then, I am an entitled white guy- or so they say.
K Tempest Bradford: angry black woman[info]ktempest on April 13th, 2008 02:06 am (UTC)
You are going to make me smack you in the face.

the only reason I don't is because I *know* you'd enjoy it. :P

Firstly, no, applying a metric, be it gender or anything else, when you're doing so to see how an underrepresented group is represented is NOT sexist or racist or any other kind of -ist. And framing the conversation this way not only has the tendency to derail it but also shows a depressing sort of cluelessness that plagues our genre so mightily.

If you aren't considering gender balance in what you publish, then you're part of the problem, not part of the solution. If you don't examine what it is that makes you prefer these 72 stories by men and only 10 stories by women (this is just to give an example, I don't want anyone whining that I'm accusing them of these exact numbers) and take a good, hard look at your own biases, prejudices, and flat-out blindness, then you are contributing to the underrepresentation of women in the genre. Same goes for race.

But hey, I'm just a loud mouth black woman, what do I know?
When life gives you lemmings...[info]danjite on April 13th, 2008 05:41 am (UTC)
Sorry, I abhor threats of violence, even in neo-jest. Period.

Utter discussion killer.
K Tempest Bradford[info]ktempest on April 13th, 2008 11:46 am (UTC)
Is that all it takes? Hm. I'll have to remember that next worldcon....
When life gives you lemmings...[info]danjite on April 13th, 2008 03:56 pm (UTC)
Hmmm... I honestly can't tell if you are trying to be offensive or snappily humorous. So much is lost in the shortform typewritten forum.
K Tempest Bradford: tempest rolls eyes[info]ktempest on April 13th, 2008 07:03 pm (UTC)
As you weren't all that concerned about being offensive in your first comment (or, honestly, your second), I don't see why I should be.
barbhendee[info]barbhendee on April 13th, 2008 03:00 pm (UTC)
Oh my gosh . . . I don't like it when discussions turn unpleasant or negative.

I sat through soooooooo many discussions in college where out of the max 26 students, four were women, one was a minority (usually black or Asian) and everyone else was a white male (this was in Idaho). After reading a piece of classical literature--normally about race or gender such as Ibsen's A DOLL'S HOUSE, we were expected to discuss it. The women and the minority usually tried to make themselves as small as possible--I very rarely said anything. Some of the white men would spend the hour arguing and during each class period, at least two of them would pontificate for five long minutes and then say, "But I'm just a white male, so I have no right to an opinion."

I kept my mouth shut. I think pointing out that some of them seem to have nothing but opinions is not the best course to take.

And I'm not trying to point it out here either or to be impolite at all (and there were plenty of white men who kept quiet too)--I'm just explaining why some people might eventually/understandably boil over.

My husband is my best friend. We just want to write books, be happy, and hopefully leave the world a better place than we found it. He doesn't have any gender hang ups--and he never victimizes himself. When we first started writing fiction, he had a hard time selling SF, and we later switched to fantasy, but neither one of us ever considered gender as a factor.

Anyway, it's Sunday and the weather here in Oregon is gorgeous. Let us just work in the garden and write some fascinating fiction and be happy.
barbhendee[info]barbhendee on April 12th, 2008 04:18 am (UTC)
I don't know much about the short fiction industry anymore--as I've only worked in novels for the past eight years.

But two of my males friends complain frequently and bitterly that they cannot get their novels published by any major house because the New York publishing industry is "ruled by women."

Go figure.
Nick Mamatas[info]nihilistic_kid on April 12th, 2008 02:04 pm (UTC)
It really does depend on field and type of writing.

Short SF remains dominated by male writers.

However, if one is writing mystery or post-Hamilton/Buffy urban fantasy, one may be asked to use intials to obscure one's gender. Thus Joe Konrath writes as J.A. Konrath and Tim Pratt as T.A. Pratt. Both those decisions were essentially compelled by marketing departments because their series had female protagonists.

Brian Evenson's THE OPEN CURTAIN was published by well-regarded independent publisher Coffee House Press despite being rather more "genre" than that publisher often goes. Coffee House acquired the book after it was rejected all over New York, with at least one rejection making it explicit that the book was rejected because the editor thought it would only appeal to men, who make up too small a fraction of the bookbuying public. THE OPEN CURTAIN went on to be nominated for an Edgar Award.

So it really depends on who is buying what and who is reading it. It seems as though most SF magazine subscribers and close readers are male. We certainly know that upwards of 70% of all novels across all categories are purchased by women (though surely some are purchased as gifts for men or boys). While virtually everyone claims to be "gender blind", clearly acquisitions track readership fairly closely, which rather puts the lie to the whole thing.
cscole[info]cscole on April 12th, 2008 04:48 am (UTC)
I have to agree with onemoreshadow and danjite. I don't look at male vs female authors in a publication, only that the story is entertaining. I also think it would be a sexist act to apply a gender metric but who am I to say one way or the other? I'm just a middle-aged housewife and no one's demographic.
lonfiction[info]lonfiction on April 12th, 2008 03:55 pm (UTC)
which goes to show that sometimes I'm reading and selecting stories without being cognizant of whether they're male or female. and I still have to print the stories I feel are the best of the bunch I've received, and put the names on the cover that have the most recognition.


Please PLEASE keep doing this. PLEASE.

In other words, she expects to like more of the stories, even by male authors, in magazines where the split is more even.

This seems weird and full of illogical assumptions to me, but that is her prerogative, I guess.

So if you published an issue written only by males, but 50% of the stories and cover names were female pseudonyms, she'd feel better about reading the stories? To each their own, but I think I'll just keep subscribing and reading because I love the stuff you publish, thanks.

The only quota I check is AFTER I finish the issue: Would I resubscribe today if the decision was based solely on this issue? TB passes the test with flying colors every time and when I'm up for renewal, I'll affirmative action you another year of subscriber dues...

I really hope you won't let one person's nag about a fluke occurrence change the way TB is run.

That said, I'm relieved there are so many females already in next issue. I'd hate to have to publish under Loni Prater just for the sake of being PC...

Patrick Swenson[info]tbclone47 on April 12th, 2008 06:19 pm (UTC)
Loni Prater. Has a nice ring to it, though. :)
[info]lmarley on April 13th, 2008 12:19 am (UTC)
I would only care about this if I didn't already know there's no gender bias here. I don't choose what I read by the (supposed) gender of the writer. But there's still that bias in the book buying public . . . hence my androgenous pseudonym.

Faith in YOU, though, boss.
Patrick Swenson: keira sweet smile[info]tbclone47 on April 13th, 2008 06:37 pm (UTC)
Thanks, Louis...I mean Louise. :)
(Anonymous) on April 14th, 2008 06:45 pm (UTC)
You say

"Only NOW have I looked at the story selection for that issue in regards to male/female, which goes to show that sometimes I'm reading and selecting stories without being cognizant of whether they're male or female."

and

"I am certainly not trying to single out male writers, and don't want to make anyone feel unwelcome. I hope I am aware of that dynamic"

That sounds contradictory to me. You seem to be simultaneously saying "I don't think about that" and "I'm aware of that."

This reader took time to do you a favor. She told you something specific about your publication that made her feel "unwelcome". She gave you information about your readership that you might not otherwise have had, information that goes beyond a simple count of issues sold. From your description, it sounds as though she did it politely.

I wonder how unwelcome she'd feel if she saw the comments here, equating her feeling of exclusion to an accusation of "misogyny"? Or announcing that her feeling of exclusion is "a sexist act"? You've replied to other comments, but not those - are you going to distance yourself from them?

This post reads to me as though you've taken a letter that says "Here's what's on your cover, and here's how it affects me, a paying reader" and responded by saying "My motives are pure" as if this somehow refutes the writer's point.
Patrick Swenson: space battle[info]tbclone47 on April 15th, 2008 04:02 am (UTC)
What I mean is I'm not purposefully singling out male readers just because it happens that a large majority of stories in a particular issue happen to be male. I can also say I wasn't making conscious gender decisions when two issues ago the male and female split was 50/50. (Or when there are more females than males in a particular issue.) I am aware of the dynamic, because it has come up in a lot of discussion posts in relation to genre mags.

She was polite, and my reply back to her was polite. I thanked her for her comments and observations, and we went back and forth a few times with calm, respectful emails. Yes, I told her some of my thoughts about covers, and name selection, but I also granted points to her. I certainly did not dismiss her.



(Anonymous) on April 14th, 2008 10:18 pm (UTC)
I do think the reader did you a huge favour in telling you what she perceives as unwelcoming (and I think perception goes beyond names and would include cover choice, story choice, etc). It would be worthwhile to consider if she does have a point, and, if you are interested in persuing a female demographic what you might want to do to increase your female readers.

How many of your current subscribers are men and women and how have those numbers varied over time? Have you ever done any marketing efforts to target female readers?

Silviamg
Patrick Swenson: serenity[info]tbclone47 on April 15th, 2008 04:35 am (UTC)
Of course she has a point. I stated that here and to her personally. I think I also had a point. (Mainly, that I almost never have a cover with only male names on it.) When a fluke like that happens, it's not due to any conscious decision. Even she mentioned in a later email that she went back to the earlier issues she'd received and noticed that this was not standard practice for me.

My subscription base is about 40% female. It doesn't fluctuate too much from there.

There's not a gender bias at work. I know that, and the people who know me know that. I've not targeted marketing efforts toward female readers because a) I already have a large percentage of them, and b) well, I don't target ANYone with marketing efforts!(I don't have extra time or extra money to do so.) A subscription drive here or there, a convention here or there, some live readings from Talebones contributors. . . Talebones survives because of word of mouth; it has a good reputation.
Cat Rambo[info]catrambo on April 21st, 2008 04:37 pm (UTC)
The problem is this -- studies have shown that people have a tendency to -unconsciously- evaluate pieces of writing differently depending on whether they think the author is male or female. That's something beyond the overt sexism we often see in the field, and it's something that even the best intentions doesn't mitigate.

This is why one needs to either strip names off manuscripts, or else be aware of this phenomenon in order to make sure you're not succumbing to it. It's not difficult to perform a spot check every once in a while and look for gender-related patterns and it's awesome to see more and more people being aware that they exist.
lyngperry[info]lyngperry on May 11th, 2008 11:30 pm (UTC)
catrambo said, basically: people have a tendency to evaluate pieces differently depending on whether they think the author is male or female...

and lonfiction said: "So if you published an issue written only by males, but 50% of the stories and cover names were female pseudonyms, she'd feel better about reading the stories?"

The answer is probably yes. For in the past it worked the opposite way for most people, thus:
George Eliot
Ellis Bell
etc